Comments on: Speed of speech and its implications http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/ social commentary, gadgets, art, travel and whatever else comes to mind Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:51:06 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: eszter http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13639 Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:43:02 +0000 http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13639 Thanks, Michael, this is very helpful, I see now what you meant. To be fair, that sentence structure from a newspaper is not exactly the type one would use in day-to-day conversation, but you're right that it is something most Hungarians would understand. There are such daily language/newspaper language discrepencies in lots of languages though, like Germany and I'm pretty sure Japanese (just to name two random ones only b/c I have some experience with both). In any case, it's helpful for me to see it broken down in that way, thanks. It would be interesting to know how this translates to memory. Thanks, Michael, this is very helpful, I see now what you meant. To be fair, that sentence structure from a newspaper is not exactly the type one would use in day-to-day conversation, but you’re right that it is something most Hungarians would understand. There are such daily language/newspaper language discrepencies in lots of languages though, like Germany and I’m pretty sure Japanese (just to name two random ones only b/c I have some experience with both). In any case, it’s helpful for me to see it broken down in that way, thanks. It would be interesting to know how this translates to memory.

]]> by: Michael http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13638 Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:28:57 +0000 http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13638 I lived in Budapest between 1989 and 1992, studying at the Liszt Academy of Music (but mainly enjoying a lot of cake). So that's how I learned the language. I do what I can to maintain it, but it's gone really rusty now. Anyway, OK, I'll give it a shot, but it might be easier to explain in the context of reading a sentence, rather than building one in conversation. Let's take a look at this sentence (via index.hu): "Az augusztus 20-i tűzijáték közben kialakult, négy halálos áldozatot követelő katasztrófa felelőseit kereső kormányzati vizsgálat megállapította, hogy a rendezvényt szervező Nexus kft. mindent megfelelően csinált, viszont azt érdemes volna kivizsgálni, hogy a meteorológiai intézet figyelmeztetésének miért nem lett foganatja." Just looking at the first clause, there's a ton of information that English would require breaking up into smaller sentences. Here's an attempt at packing this all into one English sentence. "A government investigation into who's to blame for the catastrophe that came about during the August 20 fireworks, causing four deaths, determined that..." The subject of the sentence is "investigation", and that needs to be at the beginning of the sentence in order to make sense in English. In the Hungarian, it's way downstream right before the verb "determined" at the end of the clause. So, in the Hungarian, you have to get through all the descriptive stuff before knowing what the subject is. I had to really pick this apart to figure out what it means: - Az augusztus 20-i tűzijáték közben kialakult, (brought about during the August 20 fireworks) - négy halálos áldozatot követelő katasztrófa (catastrophe causing four deaths)      - felelőseit kereső      (searching for those responsible)          - kormányzati vizsgálat          (government investigation) You don't know where the sentence is going until it's there already. As a non-native speaker I find this really exhausting. So, I wonder if a lifetime of hearing and reading everyday language does indeed strengthen ones capacity to store these little details. Does any of this make sense? I lived in Budapest between 1989 and 1992, studying at the Liszt Academy of Music (but mainly enjoying a lot of cake). So that’s how I learned the language. I do what I can to maintain it, but it’s gone really rusty now.

Anyway, OK, I’ll give it a shot, but it might be easier to explain in the context of reading a sentence, rather than building one in conversation. Let’s take a look at this sentence (via index.hu):

“Az augusztus 20-i tűzijáték közben kialakult, négy halálos áldozatot követelő katasztrófa felelőseit kereső kormányzati vizsgálat megállapította, hogy a rendezvényt szervező Nexus kft. mindent megfelelően csinált, viszont azt érdemes volna kivizsgálni, hogy a meteorológiai intézet figyelmeztetésének miért nem lett foganatja.”

Just looking at the first clause, there’s a ton of information that English would require breaking up into smaller sentences. Here’s an attempt at packing this all into one English sentence.

“A government investigation into who’s to blame for the catastrophe that came about during the August 20 fireworks, causing four deaths, determined that…”

The subject of the sentence is “investigation”, and that needs to be at the beginning of the sentence in order to make sense in English. In the Hungarian, it’s way downstream right before the verb “determined” at the end of the clause.

So, in the Hungarian, you have to get through all the descriptive stuff before knowing what the subject is.

I had to really pick this apart to figure out what it means:

- Az augusztus 20-i tűzijáték közben kialakult,
(brought about during the August 20 fireworks)

- négy halálos áldozatot követelő katasztrófa
(catastrophe causing four deaths)

     - felelőseit kereső
     (searching for those responsible)
         - kormányzati vizsgálat
         (government investigation)

You don’t know where the sentence is going until it’s there already. As a non-native speaker I find this really exhausting. So, I wonder if a lifetime of hearing and reading everyday language does indeed strengthen ones capacity to store these little details.

Does any of this make sense?

]]> by: eszter http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13637 Mon, 21 Aug 2006 05:25:26 +0000 http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13637 Oh yeah, I had forgotten to comment on the fact that you speak Hungarian. That's very impressive. I always find that curious.. why would someone learn that language? I don't mean to suggest that it's not a neat language, I think it's great, I just question its utility for non-Hungarians. Being a native speaker of the language, I have never thought about it the way you talk about it in your comment, Michael. I'd be curious in the more thorough explanation.. I don't have a cut-off for blog comments. (Well, this field might, but then you could use two comment fields one after another.:) Oh yeah, I had forgotten to comment on the fact that you speak Hungarian. That’s very impressive. I always find that curious.. why would someone learn that language? I don’t mean to suggest that it’s not a neat language, I think it’s great, I just question its utility for non-Hungarians.

Being a native speaker of the language, I have never thought about it the way you talk about it in your comment, Michael. I’d be curious in the more thorough explanation.. I don’t have a cut-off for blog comments. (Well, this field might, but then you could use two comment fields one after another.:)

]]> by: Michael http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13636 Mon, 21 Aug 2006 05:19:28 +0000 http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13636 When people ask me how I learned such a "hard" language as Hungarian, I bore with them examples of how logical it is; how, if you're willing to accept some basic differences in how sentences are put together, it actually makes a lot more sense than many other languages. (It's wonderful; highly recommended ;) Specifically, I wonder if this ties into the whole numbers question: To build a sentence in Hungarian, often times, you really need to have formed the whole idea in advance, and so you do need to keep a lot of information in your head before completing the sentence. (To thoroughly explain what I mean would be inappropriately long for a blog comment, I'm afraid.) Eh, maybe that's a bit of a stretch. (shrug) When people ask me how I learned such a “hard” language as Hungarian, I bore with them examples of how logical it is; how, if you’re willing to accept some basic differences in how sentences are put together, it actually makes a lot more sense than many other languages. (It’s wonderful; highly recommended ;)

Specifically, I wonder if this ties into the whole numbers question: To build a sentence in Hungarian, often times, you really need to have formed the whole idea in advance, and so you do need to keep a lot of information in your head before completing the sentence. (To thoroughly explain what I mean would be inappropriately long for a blog comment, I’m afraid.)

Eh, maybe that’s a bit of a stretch. (shrug)

]]> by: eszter http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13635 Mon, 21 Aug 2006 00:35:57 +0000 http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13635 Michael, you raise an interesting point when you mention the issue about numbers. Obviously this has been about numbers all along, but I haven't focused on it much. Hungarians are ridiculously overrepresented in math and related fields among top scientists. Some have suggested that this is at least in part related to the Hungarian language. If that is the case then perhaps it is easier for Hungarians for some reason to remember numbers. I wonder if they would do similarly well recalling other types of information. Michael, you raise an interesting point when you mention the issue about numbers. Obviously this has been about numbers all along, but I haven’t focused on it much. Hungarians are ridiculously overrepresented in math and related fields among top scientists. Some have suggested that this is at least in part related to the Hungarian language. If that is the case then perhaps it is easier for Hungarians for some reason to remember numbers. I wonder if they would do similarly well recalling other types of information.

]]> by: Michael http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13634 Mon, 21 Aug 2006 00:31:26 +0000 http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13634 Your point about the sample size, although you hesitate to dwell on it, is completely valid. I'm a native English speaker, fluent in Hungarian (OK, rusty), and I know fast talkers and slow talkers in both languages. The notion that "Hungarians speak faster" is preposterous to me. In fact, if anything, when it comes to television and radio, Hungarians speak more slowly and far more clearly than Americans. The idea that Hungarians are better at remembering numbers is intereseting though. Your point about the sample size, although you hesitate to dwell on it, is completely valid. I’m a native English speaker, fluent in Hungarian (OK, rusty), and I know fast talkers and slow talkers in both languages. The notion that “Hungarians speak faster” is preposterous to me.

In fact, if anything, when it comes to television and radio, Hungarians speak more slowly and far more clearly than Americans.

The idea that Hungarians are better at remembering numbers is intereseting though.

]]> by: Balazs http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13599 Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:13:40 +0000 http://www.esztersblog.com/2006/08/17/speed-of-speech-and-its-implications/#comment-13599 In reply to your comment: "As a native Hungarian speaker, would my speed in English or French be different from native speakers of languages that are, presumably, spoken slower?" Speaking from experience (being your brother and working at a University) I have to say that you speak English faster than most of my co-workers or students. I have also noticed that when I get "excited" about a topic that I am covering in class I tend to speak much faster in English, at about the speed we use in interesting Hungarian conversations. In reply to your comment:

“As a native Hungarian speaker, would my speed in English or French be different from native speakers of languages that are, presumably, spoken slower?”

Speaking from experience (being your brother and working at a University) I have to say that you speak English faster than most of my co-workers or students. I have also noticed that when I get “excited” about a topic that I am covering in class I tend to speak much faster in English, at about the speed we use in interesting Hungarian conversations.

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